Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Vote with Your Wallet in Mind; It's Time for some ...":
Maybe we could start a new thread on this blog. Several people on this blog have said that teachers are "overpaid" It might be informative to hear what people think is fair compensation for teachers at various points in their careers. What do you think is fair for a 1st year teacher, a 5th year teacher with a masters degree, a 10 or 15 year teacher with a masters degree plus 60 in service credits and a teacher at the end of their career with 25-30 years service? no name calling, no talk about greed, just numbers and conversation.
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With no disrespect intended for teachers , I will say this . No one in this country has "tenure" except the supreme court justices. Do teachers deserve tenure? no . Like every job in the corporate,non union & union world there is "due process " that should be given to employees on there employment. As far as compensation goes, who gets a raise for just "being there"?no one except teachers. I find this totally unwarranted. So here we have some teachers who in one year could receive 3 raises at once . One for being in the school a certain amount of years , another for getting a degree, and a third for a negotiated raise. Totally over the top. As far as teacher pay and hours . They are overpaid. Should a teacher make over 100 thousand a year no. Maybe someone can tell me why we should have to pay teachers so much. What do they do to earn these salaries for the amount of hours worked? And when they get there additional degrees , what are they doing to deserve a raise just for an additional degree? If they teach a math class and get a dgree, they are still teaching a math class and nothing more so why the raise .The teachers seem to think they are doing us a favor by getting more degrees when in fact they are doing themselves the favor by becoming better teachers which they should want to be.but with tenure that eliminates the need for any incentive to continue their education unless we are forced to pay them more. A person gets paid for a job that has a salary range and that is the way it should be.
ReplyDeleteI beleive the teachers are overpaid. How could they sleep at night last year when the unemployment rate was steadily climbing with all the people losing their jobs while they had the nerve to picket out side the schools ? The teachers have created this friction with their out of control "Union boss" who could care less for people losing their homes because they are not teachers. How about the state pension plan that is in the hole for an estimated 31 billion dollars . Should teachers continue to be promised these golden parachutes on our backs ? no . We can not afford to give any more , yet teachers keep demanding more. Is that fair? no
ReplyDeleteWhat do I think is fair ?
ReplyDeleteI THINK IT IS FAIR for teachers not to demand raises when so many people are losing their jobs and homes.
I THINK IT IS FAIR. for teachers not to bring their contract disputes into the classroom in fronT of my children like they did this year by wearing "contract now buttons" and picketing in from of my children.
I THINK IT IS FAIR that teachers accept the fact that when pension costs rise like most other union contracts that the cost of rising pensions be included in their overall raise of combined "pay and benefits" as a package not a given that we automatically pay the increase
I THINK IT IS FAIR that the teachers union should try to work with the community for the best interest of all and not just to continuosly enrich themselves all the time
With regard to teacher compensation. This week the state comptroller announced that he was lowering the assumed rate of return for the state pension plans from 8% to 7.5%. What that means is that with a lower rate of return we the taxpayers are responsible for more money to make up the loss in the pension plan and our taxes will rise an estimated 5% just for the pension plan. Next year is going to be a disaster at budget time. We are heading for a financial crash in our school and the school board is asleep at the wheel
ReplyDeleteI am not sure how to answer this, I think teachers are an amazingly crucial link to the success of our children, it is an important job. (It's too bad they can't be paid like stockbrokers; I give them my child, they invest their time, and 12 years later they give me a teenager bound for an Ivy League.- I think everyone would be happy with that!) and so they deserve a salary for doing an important job. Is it life or death job,(such as a suregeon's,noas of yet teacher's are not required by law to pay malpractice insurance for bad instruction in math). Good teachers should earn a competitive salary to encourage them to stay in a district and to continue to educate themselves on their subject, or the subject of teaching. Does this action in of itself warrant a raise? I think not, it, I believe is part of a professional's job. Most of us do it just to keep our employment. Teachers are also entitled to this salary when they are successful at their jobs and when they put in the hours that comparably paid employees do. I am not home til 7:30 on a good nite, and then still I often have additional work to do. I do not have the luxury of being able to work from home in the afternoon and to be there for my children. (I have yet to see a teacher offering additional help to students in the elementary schools after 3:15.) In addition, one must account for the fact that these jobs seem somewhat permanent as I have been told districts do not fire teachers unless there is a blazing neon sign of, "user error," because it costs upwards of $50k to do so. It is a perk available at few other jobs; to have your job for your life if you want it, especially when it is regardless of evaluation. Let us not forget that teachers work about 70 days less then the rest of us working stiffs. Jobs other than teacher's produce approximately 3 months more work a year for our salary.
ReplyDeleteI would be happy to pay a teacher a good white collar salary for a job well done, subject to all the other conditions of a "regular" job. I think the problem people have with the salary is there is no accountability along with it. Frankly, some teachers deserve much more than they are earning as they are making a greater impact in many students lives, while others should have been fired long ago and encouraged to seek employment in other fields.
As for Morton Rosenfeld, there is no reason to be angry with him. He is merely doing his job; representing the teachers and getting the most amount of money possible for them with the least amount of hours worked. Instead, be angry at our board for enabling him to do his job so well.
Of course the best way to do this is show up at the board meetings and let them know.
I agree with most of the last statement which was very well written except the last satetement. I do not want to get personal but As the role of a "union president " you have several roles to play. One of course is looking out for the best interest of your members . and the other is looking out for the best interest of all those involved including those who you are negotiating . Beacuse without the other party(the school) they would be non existent. If the Union were to have competition then they would of been out of business along tome ago because their competitors would of beat them out of every contract. You can negotiate your members to get $500 an hour .but if no one is willing to pay that then your out of luck. Wth the teachers union they have no competition so instead of considering the effects that that will be brought out upon the community with outrageous $$$$demands. The union president stads up at the podium of the board meeting not caring one bit about job losses, forclosures, state pension problems etc. Mr Rosenfeld should be ashamed to call himself a "union president" Instead he acts like the "union boss " that every anti-union newspaper writer writes about in the papers. It is sad that he brings out further distrust and dislike of the union movement just by the very lack of caring and recklessnes that he exhibits at board meetings when he gets up to speak
ReplyDeleteTo respond to the first poster "Like every job in the corporate,non union & union world there is "due process " that should be given to employees on there employment." I wonder where you work and how you could be so misinformed. Tenure is the right to due process. In the State of New York, absent a labor or other contract, you are what is called an AT WILL employee. Basically, in corporate NY and corporate America, you can be fired for any reason or no reason SO LONG as it is not a discriminatory one (that you can prove). Therefore, assuming you are a corporate worker, please know your rights.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Rosenfeld is just doing his job and he happens to be pretty good at it. Great for teachers but expensive for taxpayers.
ReplyDeleteCollective bargaining is a problem because while some teachers are stellar and deserve every dime and then some, others just go through the motions, and some don't even do that, yet they all qualify for the same raises and increases.
Civil servant jobs were supposed to have certain benefits - job security, benefits and pensions. Expecting corporate salaries in addition to the costs of these other benefits is making the positions far too expensive to afford. The bigger problem is that tenure makes it impossible to oust anyone for poor job performance no matter how obvious it is.
First and foremost, raises should be tied into cost of living increases. If there is no increase in the cost of living there is no reason to give any raises.
Step increases are not necessarily deserved either since where is it proven that just because a teacher takes additional credits it translates more effective teaching in the classroom and therefore deserves more salary and pension? Just because you've shown up at a job for continued years doesn't mean you're any better of a teacher, either.
It's a complex system and it seems that labor contracts are written so that games can be played to maximize paychecks without academic gain going to students.
There are some fabulous, dedicated teachers in our district who have done great things for our children. Parents all know who they are just as we know the ones who are past their prime, care little and do the least they can get away with. It's a shame that both groups get paid according to the same rules.
The public libraries have a listing of starting teachers' salaries across the entire island broken down by district. I do believe it is possible to see all salary scales but I'm not sure exactly how to do this. There are districts that pay their teachers more. Others that pay them less.
ReplyDeleteAs with most civil service jobs, there are ways to beat the system, put forth the minimum, even sometimes get away with gross impropriety. Sadly, these individuals exist everywhere, not only in Plainview.
Where I think many of the frustrations stem from in Plainview is the differential between our incredibly high tax dollars and the education our children receive. In other words, the schools are not consistent with the costs associated with living here. The teachers are the ones who spend the most time with our children so they get the most blame. True, many of them are not completely blameless and I've noticed an arrogant sense of entitlement amongst a few of them over the years but I also would not say that they are all problematic. I also would question not only the teachers' salaries but where else our tax dollars are being spent - administrators, programs, materials, buildings and grounds, etc.
Unfortunately the term due process sounds good in theory but unless you were to live in a bubble, everyone knows that it is impossible to get rid of a teacher because of tenure, Except for a teacher being criminally charged. Then and only then is there due process and the teacher is let go. Can anyone tell me if there has been anyteachers with tenure let go in the past 10 or 15 years ? probably not. Is that because 100% of the teachers are good teachers and deserve their job? no it is because of tenure. Look at any corporation with a 100 million dollar plus budget like our school. Did they let go of employees over insufficient performance ? I could say for sure yes. Most teachers are good teachers , but there are a handful of teachers that all parents know about in the schools that continually have a bad reputation year after year and they keep their job. Tenure is not the right to due process it skips over due process and guarentees jobs. You are right this is an AT WILL employee state but not for teachers . They are treated better than that. The only people in this country that have TENURE are the SUPREME COURT JUSTICES. Are our teacher worthy of the same luxury? The obvious answer is no.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately I would have to disagree about Mr. Rosenfeld being "good". The definition of a "Good Labor Leader" is an individual who can lead a membership with the best interest of all those involved that would include his/her membership,the school children, and the community . Does Mr. Rosenfeld promote good will in the community? When the contract was being negotiated , did he consider the impact of his demands on all those involved? Does he exhibit any common sense , reasoning with his out rageous demands? The answer to that is no. He has only enriched his membership regardless of the negative impact on the community in both financial and PR terms .Having teachers picket in front of children was a bad Public relations move. He has helped fuel this website. A true labor leader is able to demonstrate to the public why they would benefit as well as their members to edmands that they are pressing for.
ReplyDeletethe original request for this thread was to have a discussion about compensation for teachers at various stages of their careers. so far no one has put forth anything.
ReplyDeleteok
ReplyDeleteLet us talk about salary and benefits beacuse they are also part of the package. I beleive the compensation for a teacher should be in the range of 75,000-80,000 maximum. I do not beleive in the perk of , paying teacher for sick time they do not use. "If you dont use it you lose it".This is unheard of in the corporate world. Tenure should be eliminated. If you are a good teacher then you do not need to worry about being fired or let go. Remember New York is an AT WILL employee state and teachers should not be exempt as they are now (I know they are politically exempt due to existing laws which make it almost impossible for school contracts to be signed with out tenure included). Giving out additional compensation for getting degrees or for just "being there"(step increases) should also eliminated. They should be getting additional degrees because they want to become better teachers or they intend on seeker higher paying jobs such as a principal, depatment chair etc. Remember if you teach 5th grade for example and get an additional degree, you are still doing the same job so no extra compensation is warranted. Finally teachers are exempt from state taxes when they retire. Why ? why should I have to pay to make up the taxes that they do not pay. All these items mentioned are mostly the reason why our taxes are out of control. So when we talk of teacher compensation as a whole which includes pay and benefits, they are grossly overpaid and rarely held accountable.
I believe that the teachers are very important to our childrens future. They should not carry the stigma that there is an "endless money tree" in their value. It has really gotten out of control here. They should be compensated based on their expertise and the amount of hours and effort they put fourth in their jobs. "Rewards for Good Teachers".
ReplyDelete1. A teacher out of college gets a base salary based on Market research on location and pay scales.
2. Eliminate tenure because that just promotes people too get comfortable in their jobs and do the same thing from year to year.
3. Elementary School teachers who stay in the K-6 level for should not get raises just for being there. Our teachers follow the same plan and teaching methods year to year based on the district curriculum. Teachers should only get the budgeted raise just as you would in the corporate world unless a teacher goes above and beyond and can show significant accomplishments.
4. As with Civil Service jobs if you want to advance you need to pass a test and move onto the next level which would require a teacher to do more work -perhaps work before and after school with students who need additional support. Do not just take a class to get more money for no more additional responsibilities!
5. Continued Education should be a requirement of the job of all teachers to stay abreast with current technologies and standards. Teachers should be required to take classes every year as part of their job description.
Example: An Elementary school teacher is now certified in "Wilson Reading" or can now teach Middle school.-should get a promotional raise...
3.Promotions include going into a specialized teaching- Spec Ed or a Technology Math/Science teachers.
Just like the medical field, if you go on to futher your education to specialize in a subject or field (not just take classes)you move up significantly in pay. If a Dr goes to medical school and takes surgery classes, he does not get a higher salary unless he becomes a Surgeon.
Promotional raises should be based on continued education, additional responsibilities and performance. Performance to include: student grades, tests . parent feedback.
The State needs to look at the pension also. If the pension is under-valued in a corporation, the employees are the ones who give back. No raises or contribution freezes to make up for the shortfall. The burden should be on the teachers to payback their under-funded pensions,not the taxpayers.